Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:42 am

I'm following a discussion on DakkaDakka that merits input. Smile

The Pinning rules say (rulebook, pg 31): "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test. . .As long as the tests are passed, a unit may be called upon to take multiple Pinning tests in a single turn, but if a unit has already gone to ground, no further Pinning tests are taken."

Pinning weapon (singular) must immediately take pinning test (singular). If a unit of sniper drones with 3 pinning weapons each cause 1 casualty to an enemy unit, this sounds like 3 pinning tests are now required.

The rule does NOT say, "If a unit...suffers any unsaved wounds from a unit with pinning weapon(s)" it specifically annotates each pinning weapon.

Thoughts?

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Fozy on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:20 am

Vote no on proposition Justin 25.
avatar
Fozy

Posts : 106
Join date : 2008-12-13
Age : 31
Location : Orange Park, FL

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  mdigibou on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:08 pm

Since you roll to wound and take saves all at one time, you test by unit, not per weapon.

mdigibou

Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-01-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

I agree with the hobbit.

Post  Dodiez on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:52 pm

This is what I said when Justin brought up this topic to me too.

Only one allowed, please and thank you!
avatar
Dodiez

Posts : 7
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:57 pm

However, when a unit (say Crisis suits) has multiple weapons with varying stats, you roll to hit and wound with those weapons separately. The text for pinning weapons specifically notes that each weapon's actions needs to be individually accounted for. As such, you would need to roll each weapon separately to track its actions, the wounds that arise from it, and the pinning tests that come from it.

If I have a team of 3 snipers and it causes 2 wounds to a team of crisis suits that are equipped differently...you put one wound on the team leader, and a second wound on a drone. You roll the drone's save and fail. Rules as written here; you would then take a pinning test. Then you roll to save against the team leader, and fail that save as well. You take another pinning test.

1. The rule *specifically* calls out every weapon causing a pinning test.

2. It says, "As long as the tests are passed..." referring to a unit taking multiple pinning tests in a turn.

3. When you assign wounds to a unit, you're not actually just rolling a mass of dice; that's just a convenience taken when you have enough identical troopers to absorb the casualties. However, the wounds are being allocated per model.

Think on it...

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Daemonprince on Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:11 pm

Time to end this.
If you read the rule, "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test." you will see that the rule states that if the UNIT takes casualties, then the UNIT must take a pinning test, and since all casualties are removed at the same time from one unit's firing, then you will only take one pinning test per unit firing at you.

Daemonprince

Posts : 15
Join date : 2008-12-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:23 pm

Daemonprince, I've read the rule.

What you've written is an interpretation of the rules, which is just fine. However, what I'm asking is that if we STOP interpreting the rules, and just read them as written, then the rule specifically calls for individual action for each pinning weapon attacking a unit.

Yes, you're right - casualties are removed at the same time within a unit as a general rule. Warhammer 40k is FULL of exceptions.

You get an invulnerable save EXCEPT when...
You fall back after failing leadership in close combat EXCEPT when...
You make a sweeping advance in close combat EXCEPT when...

and here appears to be another one.

You remove casualties within your unit simultaneously EXCEPT when...a pinning weapon is used. Then each casualty caused by each pinning weapon causes a pinning check. Don't interpret, just look at what it says.

Anyone? Something to refute?

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  mdigibou on Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:14 am

Ok justin, you might roll to hit and wound seperately for all weapons on say, a Crisis suit, but in game terms, you roll to save "simultaneously".

The test is made by unit, from each firing unit. We've made our arguement pretty clear, it's not an interpretation, its a combination of the multiple rules required to understand the meaning.

mdigibou

Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-01-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:48 pm

*shrugs*

Just tossing it out there. Its in discussion over at Dakka-Dakka, and I thought I'd like to get input from people I actually know and see what their take on it is.

If I didn't link it earlier, its here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/228162.page

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:03 pm

So I'm sitting here reading the rules on taking saving throws. It says...

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that re identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then by chosen by the owning player from..."

"Finally, the player rolls separately for each model that stands out in gaming terms."

Doesn't the pinning rule call for casualties standing out? Let me ask a related question....

Can one unit firing on another unit ever cause more than one leadership test to it? For example:

A space marine squad is firing on a squad of chaos marines.

1. The space marines start by having the attached Tiberius (work with me) cast his 24" bubble of "Everyone runs away."
2. Simultaneously, the unit of space marines inflict 25% casualties to the chaos marines.
3. One of the weapons that caused a casualty was a pinning weapon.
4. The attached champion guy uses his flame templated "pass your leadership or die" skill thing.
5. Lets add in for giggles that one of the marines has a weapon that "Because of its gruesome nature, if it causes a casualty, will shake the morale of its enemies" and makes them take a leadership test.

With all those things happening simultaneously, from one unit in one shooting phase...

I see one pinning test.
How many leadership tests must be taken by the attacked unit?

If the answer is "one" then I understand the pinning rule as you guys are explaining it. One pinning check since all the saves and wounds happen simultaneously.

If the answer is "more than one" then I tentatively suggest that I'm right, since pinning weapons are specifically called out to be given unique treatment, and have each of their wounds inflict a pinning test.

I await knowledge! =)

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  mdigibou on Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Psychic powers aren't resolved as part of the unit's shooting, so they would force a seperate morale test.

The pinning test is made just after the casualty is taken

The morale check is ignored, because pinned units cannot fall back.

mdigibou

Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-01-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Dashofpepper on Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:25 pm

This is probably just something I need to come into the store and talk about. =p

Frodo, Page 45 of the rulebook: Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a morale test.

Pinning is on P.31, and we know that causing 25% casualties causes a morale test (p.44).

Is there a rule somewhere that says that pinned units are fearless and no longer require morale tests for taking casualties? Or that pinned units no longer make morale checks?

Dashofpepper

Posts : 43
Join date : 2009-01-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  mdigibou on Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:32 pm

I have to look it up in the book, but yes. Pinned units no longer have to take morale checks for falling back (gone to ground units, do, however)

mdigibou

Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-01-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Your opinion on the Pinning rule?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum